Matt Angle:

Welcome back to Neurotech pub. This is part two of a two part series on BCI pioneers. This episode is being co-hosted with Taryn Southern the creative director at BlackRock Neurotech. So if you are just starting to listen to this, you should go back to part one and listen to that first.

Taryn Southern:

If you happened to miss our last episode with Jan and Ian and Nathan, please give it a listen. We talked about the experiential side of PCI as a study participant. And this episode, we're talking about everyone's journey from implant to explant and their hopes for this technology. Also, please note for any of you listening, Jan did experience some Zoom difficulties at the end of the podcast. So she had a drop a little bit early, but we will link to her projects in the show notes. So you can keep up with her there.

Matt Angle:

And in our last podcast, we interviewed some CEOs of neurotech companies. Two of the CEOs in that podcast had questions for the BCI participants. One, which you'll hear in a moment is Brian Pepin, the CEO of Rune Labs. And the other that you'll hear a little bit later in the episode is Carolina Aguilar.=, The CEO of INBRAIN Neuroelectronics. We're going to kick things off today with a question from Brian Pepin. We told him that we would have some of these BCI pioneers on the show, and we asked him if he had any questions for Nathan, Ian or Jan. And this is what he said.

Brian Pepin:

Yeah, there was a New Yorker article, I don't know, sometime in the last two or three months that it was kind of about the patients who were implanted with the old NeuroVista system. But it was sort of exploring the relationships that these folks had with their device from like a how it incorporated into their identity perspective. And it was interesting. It was really divergent because some people really, it became part of them and it felt like part of them and it felt very natural and some people that connection was never really made. And I don't know, the article didn't really dive into why, but I think that's, I don't know, just philosophically a really interesting kind of area of how people after they have something that's, especially for Utah, like I assume, like locked in patients, right? What would they think if that was suddenly taken away because that's a real threat for a lot of these folks that at the end of the brain gate trial or whatever, there won't be any more support and it'll be taken away. And so how they think about that.

Ian Burkhart:

Yeah. I think that question is really interesting because for me, when I was looking at the beginning of the trial, I really thought one of the selling points was that it wasn't going to change me because it was something I was only using in the lab and it wasn't going to impact my life negatively, but then when we got to it and it looks like the trial was at one point starting to end and the device was still working just fine, I had to fight to keep the device because I thought there's some good purpose to keeping it, even if the trial isn't actively going on because we had some funding issues and things like that. But we are still applying for future funding. And I didn't want to subject myself to a couple extra surgeries that I didn't need.

Ian Burkhart:

And then when we finally got to the end of the trial and I was ready for explant, it was a little bit of a second injury to me because it was taking that part of my life away once again because I wasn't able to use my hand exactly like I had previously to my spinal cord injury, but I was able to use it when I was in the lab and do a lot of things that I can't do without it. Now I don't have that sense of, oh, I can go into the lab and still use this part of my body. So it was something that was really interesting because I had to cope with that and having that almost second injury again of losing that level of independence. It was something that I signed up for. I saw it coming, which was obviously much different than my spinal cord injury, which I did not sign up for, but it was still really challenging in the sense that I had all this possibility and capability for a while. And then that was stripped away from me again.

Taryn Southern:

What about you, Jan? Was that a challenging process for you? The explant?

Jan Scheuermann:

When the explant happened, it was very abrupt. There was a small tear on my scalp where the scalp attached to the pedestal and they said, "This is allowing for possibility of infection." So my neurological surgeon came and looked at and said she had to talk to some people. She came back to the lab on Thursday and said, "Yeah, we're going to have to take out the device. How's tomorrow sound for surgery?" And it was just so abrupt. Before the surgery ever happened, I consulted with a psychiatrist who said, "How do you think you'll feel when this is over?" And I said, "I think I'll be sad that it's over, but glad that I had the chance to participate." And after the explant that's how it felt for a couple weeks. Well, I'm glad I was able to do this. This was a good thing.

Jan Scheuermann:

But one day, a couple weeks later, I just burst out in tears, then slept for about 20 minutes. And then it was over. And what I missed was not so much the capability I had physically with Hector. I missed going to the lab. I missed my coworkers cause I had a job. I was interacting with other people. I was part of a research team. We worked crossword puzzles together and I asked Jen about her kids and talking about our kids. And John would bring in samples of cupcakes his girlfriend made, and Theo would help watch Brian get ready for his wedding. And these are all very exciting things to be part of, to be part of people's lives. And although, I keep in touch with them now, it's not the same as having a job to go to every day. So I felt more like I lost a job and that's what I missed more. Of course that was eight years ago. So looking back now, I'm at the point where I'm so glad I was able to do it.

Taryn Southern:

Jan and Ian, if there was something that some insights that could be gleaned from that experience that could be shared with research teams or companies that are putting these devices in patients, I guess, how to approach these kinds of scenarios so that mentally and emotionally you're in the best possible position to navigate a transition with the device.

Jan Scheuermann:

I think part of it is just awareness, making the consumer aware if this will end, when it will end or how it will end, or that might end abruptly for this reason, then trying to get them mentally prepared. I had a psychologist who was available and they said any time during our study. He called me every couple months to make sure I was doing okay. And especially after the explant, he called and was checking in on me. I think that being available to all the consumers would help them more than talking to the researchers because they don't know how to handle the emotions. My psychologist was actually physically challenged himself. So he knew the emotions that people go through when they're like this and how to help the people deal with that. Ian, how about you? Any ideas?

Ian Burkhart:

The best idea I have is to make sure that it doesn't need to happen. Be able to build a device that's reliable enough, but there's always going to be something that will come up. It's inevitable in life. And for me, that transition was made a little bit easier. It wasn't as abrupt as Jan's because I first had the COVID shutdown that gave us a little gap in our research. And then we started things back up and then I started having smaller issues. And so it wasn't as abrupt as okay, the next day you need to get this out. So I did have some time to process it, but I think one of the big things that for me was challenging was when we hit, I don't know, it was somewhere around the four and a half year mark, that was when the study was looking like it was going to end just because of lack of funding, not necessarily because we were done with the research or the device wasn't working.

Ian Burkhart:

And that's something that is preventable that you can do prior to make sure that you have funds set aside to support the device ongoing if something happens with the researchers or the company who's making it. So that way you're not having to remove the device over something as silly as lack of funding. And outside of that, I think there's just some things that are inevitable where the device will fail or you'll hit it on something or you'll get an infection or whatever it may be. But doing everything that you have control over is something that really needs to be addressed so that you're not leaving patients who you're there to do research on, but also ultimately it's all these hospitals and research institutions are doing this for the patient good and improving the quality of care and quality of lives of individuals. That should entail making sure that devices are going to work as long as possible.

Matt Angle:

Ian, I'd be curious, and for all of you, we have a lot of people that listen to the podcasts that develop neural technologies and Brain-Computer Interfaces. There are definitely different schools of thought on this. I think there's one prominent neurotechnology company that thinks that these kind of devices could be like quick turnover, kind of consumer goods. If you were getting into this again, what would be your expectation for how long you would want a device to last?

Ian Burkhart:

Well, I'm certainly open to being implanted again. And now having gone through it once already, I certainly know certain things that I'd look for, but I'd definitely want a device that's going to last at least 10 years before it would need upgraded or removed or whatever it may be. I mean, obviously, like I said earlier, there's still those unforeseen circumstances that may arise, but I think 10 years is the minimum of what you want to do for a device that you're requesting someone to have one if not two neurosurgeries for.

Jan Scheuermann:

I was thinking the same amount of time 10 years, that for a minimum.

Nathan Copeland:

Yeah. I think 10 is a good amount. And hopefully I get there, especially if it's moved into the consumer phase and it's not tied to a study that is already expected to be limited. And it's like, when I joined the research study, it was a one year thing. And they said after a year we can submit stuff to the FDA and maybe extend it. And so that got extended to up to five years after implant. And then I hit that and then, okay, we'll submit stuff again. And now it's up to 10 years and it's basically, I guess, one of those things that as long as there's funding and it's still working, I will be able to keep using them. But to go back to the question, I've never really developed any kind of special relationship with my implants or the robotic arm, the things I controlled. It's I know they're there and when I'm not using them, I don't think about them at all.

Nathan Copeland:

And even when I am using them, I don't think about the individual pieces very much. It is just me, and as someone who hasn't experienced explant yet, I can only imagine how bad it will feel, but I know it will be a huge hit to me because, like Ian said, it's these abilities that get suddenly taken away from you and he was only using his stuff to move his hand in the lab, but I'm using this portable system at home and it's moved from I don't just do lab testing, semi-boring stuff with it. I'm doing hobbies, I'm doing potentially selling these things to have money to live a better life. And that could just one day be gone and like Jan said, it's like a job.

Nathan Copeland:

But for me it's a job, but I'm seeing my friends a couple times a week. I'm getting out of the house, like everyone at the lab, even though I started with the same people that Jan left with and then they got their PhDs and they moved on and now there's another group and some of that group have moved on and now there's a new group, but they all end up just being like friends basically. And it's not some sterile clinical environment where I go in and then they say do this and do this, and it's not real interaction. I'm talking to these people about our lives and the anime that we watched and movies and playing games and all that stuff. So when it gets taken away, which is inevitable, I don't know how bad I will feel.

Nathan Copeland:

I just know I'll feel really bad. But my main hope is that my implant works and the study is going on for long enough that some of these devices have moved into the next phase and I can get an explant and maybe I can get another re-implant surgery at the same time and continue to do the things that I like. And like a cell phone plan, you have it for this many years, you're due for a free upgrade. And then it's the newer better model and you can do more stuff with it. And-

Taryn Southern:

I think hearing from all of you across the board about these experiences is what motivates companies like Blackrock and Paradromics to keep pushing this forward. So that it's not only relegated to a few handful of clinical trials. Right.

Jan Scheuermann:

May I take it back for a minute to the question he had about our relationships with our implants. I had a relationship with Hector, my robotic arm. We had an agreement in the lab that I got credit for all the successes. Hector took the blame for all the failures. Of course, I wrote that agreement. Hector didn't have much say in it. But when I was explanted, I went back a week later to the lab to say goodbye to Hector. And I didn't know why I thought I had to do it physically because I did it at home. It was a very difficult thing to do at home. But in my mind I said goodbye to Hector and thank them for all the interaction and for doing so well. And I don't know if I was saying goodbye to all the lab people in my mind, or to me, it was saying goodbye to Hector. And it was a very emotional thing for me.

Jan Scheuermann:

The pedestals on my head, which I named Lewis and Clark, I didn't have such a close relationship with them because I couldn't see them. It's like, I looked in the mirror all the time. I wasn't even aware of them, so I didn't miss those. But yeah, the guy I worked with, my right hand as it were, my right hand man was Hector. I had to say goodbye to him.

Nathan Copeland:

I would go into the lab and always hear stories about Jan making little costume covers for her pedestals.

Jan Scheuermann:

Oh yeah.

Nathan Copeland:

For like holidays and stuff. Then I remember for Halloween, the one year I...the pedestal caps are just brown. I took tape and made one black and one red and made them like battery terminals. That was my extent.

Taryn Southern:

That's so cool.

Nathan Copeland:

But then I went in and they gave me new ones. I was like, oh, that's not fun. So yeah, it is, like I said, it's hobbies. And I don't know, kind of like business ventures kind of things that it's not just something I do for fun because I get out of the study and I'm back to low income living in the middle of nowhere and-

Jan Scheuermann:

Well, Nathan, do you have to be hooked up to yours every day in your apartment?

Nathan Copeland:

I don't have to, but-

Jan Scheuermann:

I mean, if you want to use them, who hooks you up?

Nathan Copeland:

Whatever aide is around can hook them on because it doesn't use the bulky patient cables. They use the Cereplex Neuroplex, whatever you call them, Neuroplexes because they're for people, not animals, but even though I need a new pair to say neuroplex on them, some flames or something. Yeah. But so then they just use a really small like micro HDMI cable, so I can sit here and be plugged in to it even though I may or may not use it. It can just be plugged in. The worst thing is it has to be powered by batteries right now. So every 40 minutes, I need someone around to swap the batteries out. And luckily enough, I have three batteries and I can charge two at once. So I can cycle pretty much indefinitely through the batteries because sometimes I might use it for like six or eight hours a day playing some games and stuff.

Jan Scheuermann:

What I would've improved about mine was just to make it portable. Then obviously there's been a lot of progress on that then that Nathan has the device at home now. It's battery powered. I could only use mine in the lab and involved being hooked up to one device and the control panel that was the size of two large screen TVs. And yeah, there was nothing about that I could do at home. So looks like they're going a long way already towards making it usable at home.

Nathan Copeland:

Yeah. And then I would... Obviously, wireless would be great and that's being worked on and it wouldn't really work with the sensory simulation stuff, but it would still be really cool. It's one of those things that as you go, the improvements are getting made little by little because I would've said get rid of the big gray patient cables and now we're not using those and it is portable. Now I would like a more powerful home system that could stay plugged in and do all that stuff. One thing that is not ready for home use at all is robots. No one has made a robot that is good enough to use in the house. They all need mounted on big frames and they have limited range of use. And it wouldn't be helpful. I don't know if anyone is thinking about the robot side of things.

Taryn Southern:

Well, they should once commercialization becomes a thing. I think that makes a lot of sense.

Nathan Copeland:

They should. It should be a Japanese company and they should fly me out to consult.

Matt Angle:

Ian, what would you like to see? You've said you would be interested in participating in another study or maybe one day having a commercial implant. What's your dream. What's the thing that you would like to see on offer?

Ian Burkhart:

For me, I just want it to be echoing what Jan and Nathan said is something that's portable and you can use all day long. You need to have it to be something that doesn't require a PhD student or an engineer to get set up or to kind of retrain any of the algorithms and things like that. I would definitely lean to having something that was fully implantable. So you really minimize that risk of infection once things heal and just so it can be another tool that you're using in your life, just like using a wheelchair or using a keyboard and mouse to be able to navigate your environment. So the easier things are then integrating that into being that keyboard and mouse or controlling environmental controls, like a smart home and things like that or using it to drive a car or drive your wheelchair, any things like that, but really just something that you look at the individual and you don't even know it's there.

Matt Angle:

The other thing, and this is kind of jumping around because Taryn and I had so many questions we wanted to ask you. But one of the things that I was wondering is all three of you are kind of pioneering spirit. You said like you encountered this and you were like, yep. I'm in like, sign me up. And I'm wondering, you three probably had a lot of people in your lives. I'm sure some of them were like, "You should do this, go for it." I'm sure some of them were more cautious. It was a major surgery. How did that dynamic unfold in your lives?

Jan Scheuermann:

In my life, I waited till the entire family... Now my entire family is my mom, my eight siblings, their seven spouses and all the grandkids. So we get together for Christmas. There's about 40 of us. And I had only told... The only people who knew about this were my husband and my kids, then my mom. So at the Christmas gathering, I showed them the video of Tim Hemmes and I said, "I'm going to be the next one to do it. I've signed up for this experiment." And they were all really glad to hear it. I remember my little nephew Corvin came running over and gave me a big hug. And those who were worried about it were afraid I might be leaping in without really thinking about it, were smart enough to approach my husband and ask him, "Has Jan thought this through? Is this safe?" Instead of questioning me. I remember when I told my kids about it, my daughter Elizabeth, I said, after a while, I said, "You're not asking if it's safe."

Jan Scheuermann:

And she says, "Well, I know you. You wouldn't have agreed to participate if it's not safe. You've already ready researched it. And you know it's as safe as it can be." So most of the people I knew were very enthusiastic for me and said, "You'd be a really good person for this. You have a lot of enthusiasm. This would be a good project for you." And those who didn't, as I say, were smart enough not to tell me. So I didn't hear about their reservations for many, many months, but they all came and visited me in the lab and got pictures shaking hands with Hector.

Nathan Copeland:

I had kind of the opposite experience where I had friends that were happy and excited and knew kind of that I was going to do it because it was cool and I wanted to push the science forward and all that. And then my mom was really against it. And at the time she was my primary caregiver. So it made things pretty difficult at home because she basically wouldn't talk to me for a long time. And she would call my sister and kind of blow up at her like, "Oh, is your brother crazy? He survived his car accident. And he had a stroke and he has no mental issues. And now he wants to have voluntary brain surgery." And she wouldn't take me to any of the pre-surgery testings and all that. She just kind of shut me out for a while until I had the implants and everything was working okay and that kind of stuff.

Nathan Copeland:

But luckily I did have some family, like my sister and my grandma and a great aunt that were like, "Okay, we'll take you to your tests before surgery." And my grandma was like, "I'll take you to your surgery." And my sister would drive me to Pittsburgh on days to do testing. And my friend who had just quit his job at the time, he didn't have anything better to do. So he would take me into testing and I had enough support to get by. And now my mom's okay. And everything's still going okay. So, but it was rough for a while.

Ian Burkhart:

For me, it was something where I had really already made up my mind before I even talked to my family and friends about what was going on. I definitely got some pushback from my family, similar to Nathan where it's, you just had your spinal cord injury and you're doing fine. There's no promise that this is going to positively impact your quality of life. Why do you want to do this? And that was something that was a much easier question for me to answer in my mind than to put words to, but it was really I believed in the possibility of what it could achieve in the future and that I had a great opportunity to do it. So I really jumped at it, but it was something I had to sell my friends and family on that, hey, this is safe because similar to my spinal cord injury where I was the first quadriplegic that I knew, I was the first person with a BCI that I knew.

Ian Burkhart:

And that was a little challenging because there were some things that I had reservations about as far as living with the pedestal coming out of your skull and things like that. And at that point in time, I didn't know anyone else that had it. So I couldn't go and ask them. So hopefully in the future, there's something that can be a avenue for individuals that are interested in this to connect with others on. But I'm really glad that I did it. And even through the ups and downs of the trial, it was definitely worth doing.

Matt Angle:

Is there something that any of you would want to explicitly say to someone who's thinking about this, or like a family member who's struggling with this? Is there...

Jan Scheuermann:

Well, I've been asked in the past to talk to people who have been thinking about participating in a study and tell them my experience with it. And I've talked to them on the phone or through emails and told them how positive my experience was. And I hope that's still in place that there's anyone that's thinking about participating in this, or having this surgery done, having these implants put in, that they are able to get in touch with us so we can tell them about our experience and how positive it was.

Taryn Southern:

I'm curious, generally, within the various communities that you three are a part of, what the temperature is, the general temperature is for something like this, especially as companies move towards making them more widely available. Is it something that you feel people you do speak to are relatively open to, or what are the reservations that you hear most frequently?

Ian Burkhart:

I've definitely seen both sides of it, where you have people who are eager, excited, sign me up, let me go, I'm next. And you have people who are saying, "No way I'm letting anyone cut into my head and put something in my brain." I think it's different for every individual, as far as what their risk aversion is like, but at the same point as things progress and mature, and you change that value proposition of what you're getting out of the device versus, oh, it's just something you can use while you're in the lab. And you're going to have to dedicate all this time for the research. That's going to change a lot of people's minds. And as well as having more surgeons that have done these devices.

Ian Burkhart:

For me, I was relatively at ease with the surgeon who did mine because he routinely does deep brain stimulation surgery. And just to oversimplify things, that's going much deeper into the brain for me is just cutting open proportion of my skull, putting in the array, closing me back up and I go home. That's great. But if we can get it to the point where it really is much more routine, then that will change people who are a little bit more against it. But even if it is how it is right now, I mean, I think all three of us have had positive experiences and would gladly do it again.

Nathan Copeland:

Yeah. I've talked to a couple people that were thinking about participating in... It's just a little bit of the, yeah, you're probably going to have some pain after surgery and you have to put aside a lot of your time to go to the lab and testing. And the consent form says you're not going to have any benefits, but for me, I've just had a lot of benefits to myself as a person. I've grown a lot. I never would've been comfortable speaking to a room full of 10 people let alone 200 and I've just kind of grown to actually enjoy doing it and look forward to the next conference that I can speak at. And before the world shut down that involved traveling to places I never would've got to.

Taryn Southern:

Well, thank you guys for lending your voices because I don't think all participants are necessarily open to sharing their personal stories and the vulnerable aspects of the research and the kind of evolution of your work with these devices. So we're just really grateful that you all have been so front facing.

Matt Angle:

Yeah, I mean, for people who are developing these technologies now, it's inspirational. I mean, puts a face to the things that they're working on, that they probably know abstractly and intellectually that they're doing something useful, but this is extremely helpful. I mean, speaking just personally.

Jan Scheuermann:

The handicapped community that I am in touch with in Pittsburgh, we all bristle at the word inspirational because there're so tired of being inspirations. My favorite joke is how many handicapped people does it take to change a light bulb? It takes five, one to change it and four to say how inspirational that was. The thing is, we're not doing it to be inspirations. This is how we're living our lives and how we're trying to contribute to science. The fact that we are inspirations is a side effect. I'll say, not necessarily benefit, the side effect. I certainly understand.

Taryn Southern:

Well, I will say the three of you have chosen to share your stories and not everyone chooses to do that. And I think that is hard. Or maybe, I mean, maybe not, maybe it's just comes naturally, but I think that it... But it is something that is important. It's really important.

Matt Angle:

We had one more question from Carolina that we had queued up.

Carolina Aguilar:

Matt, I will ask them, would they do it? Would they have got a Utah Array if they wouldn't have the disability? So thinking about the potential of these interfaces in the future, would they do it without the disability?

Jan Scheuermann:

I'm sorry. Would we do it what?

Matt Angle:

Carolina's asking would either of the three of you ever have considered getting a brain implant, if you didn't have a medical condition.

Jan Scheuermann:

No.

Nathan Copeland:

I am absolutely the type that would say yes in a heartbeat. It's the kind of stuff that I thought was so cool, cool in my life. I grew up watching anime and sci-fi movies and robots and cyborgs. And so that kind of stuff and playing video games, just it definitely would've drawn me in to saying yes and I don't know, I just like to be on the cutting edge if I can. If I had the money, I would have the best gaming computer and best TV. And I would just always be trying to find where that edge is and keep on it.

Taryn Southern:

You really do belong in Japan. Nathan. That was meant to be a compliment by the way. They're just very advanced.

Nathan Copeland:

I always joke that I'm actually too old to be a robot pilot if I was there, because you got to be like 16 on all the anime. That's prime robot cyborg age.

Taryn Southern:

Ian, what about you? We're in the year 2050.

Ian Burkhart:

Yeah. I mean, certainly the tipping point for me was because I wanted to use it to control the stimulation sleeve on my arm, but I think as things mature and if I didn't have my disability, if that value proposition is there, if it can be a tool to let me do some aspect of my life or work better, I think it's going to be something that's really intriguing to a lot of people. And I would be one of those people because like Nathan and I have always been a little bit more of an early adopter of technology and I'd rather figure out a way to do something a little bit better, even if it's clunky at first, which is kind of what we're all experiencing right now with the BCI. But I mean, if I can use it to interact with my computer and do things faster than anyone else, that gives me that extra edge, whether that be if I'm playing a game or in the corporate world of having to drive Excel or some other application like that. I think it would be a great tool to have in your tool book.

Taryn Southern:

Super interesting.

Jan Scheuermann:

Well, I see no reason. Why would you have an operation like this? So you could do a poorer job of it with a robotic arm.

Ian Burkhart:

Yeah. I certainly see that right now, but hopefully in the future we get to the point where it is just more routine because it adds better value to your life. It is interesting though why I say that I really would. I wear contacts right now and I don't want to have LASIK surgery because I see that as the value proposition isn't there for me because it's a little bit more, even though it's a widely done procedure, it's a little bit more risky to me because I don't want to be a wheelchair user and blind. And I saw it as the brain implant was something where if things really went wrong, I wouldn't have to worry about it during that. It would be something that isn't controllable by me. But when we get to the point where it's safe enough and done routinely enough, I think there's going to be a lot more people that will say yes, even without having a disability.

Matt Angle:

I think it's interesting to see just the range of responses on this.

Taryn Southern:

And I think there are areas that fall into this interesting kind of middle ground when you think about trials for depression, for instance, and how many people have suffered at some point in their lives from a mental health issue. That's been incredibly prohibitive or they have treatment resistant versions of that, but this sort of exists on a spectrum. It's not an easy condition. It's not a black and white condition in the way that some other conditions are. So I think it'll be interesting to see how this conversation evolves. So anyway, thank you for sharing about that. I thought that was really interesting to hear your thoughts.

Matt Angle:

The other thing was, is I just wanted to give each of you a chance to, if there was a message that you wanted to put out there.

Taryn Southern:

Ian, do you want to start?

Ian Burkhart:

Certainly. Yeah. So, well I guess what all do we want to include?

Taryn Southern:

I know you have a lot going on right now. Well, you all do.

Ian Burkhart:

Yeah. Currently my big projects are the foundation that I started, which is the Ian Burkhart Foundation set up to help other individuals with spinal cord injuries live a higher quality of life and be more independent. And hopefully we get to the point where we can help fund BCIs for individuals like that. Additionally, I do a lot of speaking to share my experience and advocate for the use of these types of technologies to allow others to have independence to do whatever they may want to do. I'm also now the vice president of the North American Spinal Cord Injury Consortium, which is focused on getting individuals with lived experience involved in research to really drive the focus of research to make sure it's not a bunch of people in an echo chamber making decisions for a group that they don't really know anything about because like you guys just said, everything's kind of on that spectrum of what even individuals with disabilities may want. If that's your target market to start, you'd really want to make sure you're going down the right path so that way you have a high opportunity of success.

Taryn Southern:

And so where is the best place for people to find you, Ian?

Ian Burkhart:

Yeah, best place to find me. I have a website, Ianburkhart.com and there's contact information on there to find my social media or email and get in touch with me.

Taryn Southern:

Nathan, how about you?

Nathan Copeland:

For me, I'm BCIcandobetter@gmail.com is the email, but it's BCIcandobetter on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram. That's my username on OpenSea where you can find my NFTs and also SuperRare. Yeah. For right now, I'm just kind of working on the study and making art when I can, and hopefully getting enough followers to make some life changing money on some of these things. I draw really cool cats, more cats are coming. More eyes are coming.

Matt Angle:

And your BCI can do better, is there a way you want people to do better? What would you want to be better?

Nathan Copeland:

So that name actually has a couple meanings because first it came about while I was kind of replicating studies that were either done with other BCIs like EEG or they were done with monkeys. And so I was just kind of repeating some of these basic tasks already. And I was like, oh, I should start a YouTube channel and call it BCI can do better. And kind of just show me doing these things better. And then it also now means BCI as a whole can do better. There's lots of things that can be improved. And I always say, aren't you glad I'm better than a monkey. And when I'm explaining things to people and doing these tasks and sometimes they're not going right and I don't waste everyone's time if it's not going right. I say, "Hey, this isn't working out. You just explained it to me." And I don't waste everyone's time. I say, "Aren't you glad I'm better than a monkey?" And so BCI can do better than what has come before and BCI can do better as a whole moving forward.

Taryn Southern:

That's awesome.

Matt Angle:

Thank you so much for joining us.

Taryn Southern:

I always feel like I learn so much every time I have a new conversation with one of you, nevermind three of you in the same room. That was really fun. Thank you all again.

Taryn Southern:

Any final thoughts, Matt, on this two part journey?

Matt Angle:

I found the discussions really interesting and to hear from everyone and hear what they wanted to see in a BCI, what things were important to them, hear about their experience. I think as a technologist, but a lot of the time I'm abstracting away a lot of these details and thinking about it in a very kind of technical sense, or I have my CEO hat on and I'm talking about markets, but to talk with people who experienced it, I found that invaluable. And I think a lot of people who are listening will think the same.

Taryn Southern:

And the more to have them in the same space talking as well. Right? I don't think that prior to a few years ago, there were a lot of opportunities for the BCI research participants to be in the same room and to have these conversations. And there's a lot of insights that can be gleaned from that kind of collaborative discussion.

Matt Angle:

I completely agree. I mean, that's actually been the most interesting thing, not just about this episode, but Neurotech Pub format in general. The truth is that when you get three people who have a lot of shared experience, but maybe aren't so close that they talk regularly, yeah, you get to kind of be there in the room as the interactions unfold. It's really cool.

Taryn Southern:

Agreed. Well, thank you all so much for listening and Matt, thank you for having me. I hope everyone follows and subscribes your podcast. Everyone who's listening, please check out the show notes that you can connect more closely with Jan, Ian, and Nathan. They're all active on social media and or LinkedIn. And I know that they would love to hear from you. See you all next time or maybe not, because I don't actually host this podcast. I think you'll see-

Matt Angle:

You can come back if you wanted.

Taryn Southern:

Great! You'll definitely see Matt next time though.

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